If I were to really take on atheists head on, without any regard for tact, with a no-holds-barred attitude towards name calling, I’d probably say that they are a bunch of idiots.
I don’t want to get into name calling, so why did I just write that. One. Because I do question the idea that an intelligent and honest person can not believe in G-d – yes I’ll elaborate. And two, I’ve dangled the name calling thing out there because it’s the tactic that atheists seem to recognize.
So . . . two points for this post. 1) Why is atheism idiotic and 2) Why does a guy who doesn’t want to get into name calling allow this seeming exception.
1 – We live on a spinning ball. It’s dangling in space. Life as we know it couldn’t exist if it stopped or if it were going at a different pace. There is another globe going around us (the moon). Its spin creates an entire tidal ecosystem. The two together go at a perfect pace around this really big (until you compare it to other star/suns) ball of fire that doesn’t extinguish. Closer or further away – we’re toast or ice. Seasons, day/night, birds, fish, amphibians, reptiles, lungs, butterflies, oak trees, and oreos – all balanced in perfect harmony. What a pleasant coincidence! As I suggested in my first post on atheism, I will not take the stance that therefore any particular religion is true. That doesn’t follow. I’m only talking about G-d the Creator.
How can one honestly and intelligently look at this world and claim chance! A couple more questions that have puzzled me: what did bees do before flowers? or the flowers before the bees? There are countless examples of interrelationships between organs within the same organism and organisms within the same system that can not exist without the other. Another puzzle that I haven’t been able to figure out. This is a question for those who enjoy saying/writing things like, “When it became advantageous for a bird to fly, it developed wings.” I don’t know if any serious scientists say such things, but this type of horribly incoherent language is prevalent throughout pseudo scientific articles and other places of supposed intelligence. Exactly how did my great great grandfather – the earlier organism – know that there was sound out there before the ears developed? This type of imaginary approach to life is . . . weird. Step back and think about what you are proposing! Help. Help. Help. I need to devolve to understand this.
2 – The name calling is because I don’t know how else to deal with this. I don’t care how many phD’s you can put in front of me to prove to me that there are intelligent people who believe this. So what. There are intelligent people who believe that there is a G-d; intelligent people who do not; intelligent people who believe that Jesus died for the sins of humanity; intelligent people who do not. That there are intelligent people who believe something doesn’t impress me. Nothing could be more counterintuitive that randomness in such a world. Oh, yes, some things do seem random. What that means is that we have an exceptionally well planned world with some difficulties. Super. Let’s see if we can understand those difficulties But to ignore all of the pattern, intelligence, and interrelationships because of some inconsistencies is . . . you pick the name that I should call it.
Matthew said
There might be some atheists who are stupid enough to claim that the earth keeps spinning because of chance. There are idiots on both sides of the debate.
I say the earth keeps spinning because of angular momentum, the same reason your bicycle wheels keep spinning when u lift them off the ground. Are you really claiming that Gods hand keeps giving the world a little push every now and then?
How ridiculous!
clarityman said
Matthew,
I really enjoy reading comments. Thank you.
My challenge to you is to stop thinking that by putting a scientific name onto something (angular momentum) that you’ve pieced together the puzzle.
Do you think that the bicycle made itself? Can it continue spinning at the same pace for 15 million years? Get outside of your box and think about this anew. Forget about bad religion and bad science. Think about this with your own common sense and without trying to call something ridiculous before you understand it.
Matthew said
The bicycle wheel would indeed spin at the same pace for 15 million years if it were not for friction. Are you seriously saying that God’s hand is slowing down my bicycle wheel?
The earths spin is also slowing (albeit slowly) but for different reasons, you will need to read up on gravitational physics to understand why.
In one sense though you have hit the nail on the head. Putting a name on something does not mean you have pieced together the puzzle. Do I need to spell it out for you?
clarityman said
Would the bicycle wheel create itself?
Would the bicycle wheel support life from its own supply of tire and spokes?
Would it spin at a pace that perfectly coincides with two other orbs?
The list of questions is long. These are the types of questions that atheists don’t think about.
Matthew, if you question religion, bring it on. I’ve got some monster whopping difficulties with many/most religions. If you believe that this world is a coincidence because you read a book about gravitational physics, then I’ll again challenge you to think on your own. All just random luck, huh?
I did the name calling part on the blog not to insult. I was making a point – perhaps not so well – that atheists respond well to name calling. I’ve watched a couple of debates between the theists and the atheists. I have yet to see one where the atheist resists the temptation to insult. I was being a bit playful, and I decided to play too.
I’m pleased that you respond for the world to see that you can’t really answer to such an insanely complex world being random. You’ve read a book or two (for all I know or care you have three phD’s in physics) and you now have solved all questions of a complex universe. Instead of hinting at how I may need to have things spelled out, try to consider the universe.
It would be convenient for you and all atheists if all of us believers were the stupid blind sheep that you imagine us to be. Afraid not. Are there stupid religious people? I probably know more than you do. But the problem for you is that I used to be an atheist. It makes no sense. None. Zilch.
The only way out of atheism is to stop and think. It is frightfully obvious that we live in a world of pattern and precision. I don’t want to share Jesus with you. I don’t want to save you. Drop your assumptions and think about it. Be well.
Etienne said
Hi Clarityman,
You so don’t know what you’re talking about, it’s funny. If you’re going to criticise science, at least make an effort to understand the concepts you’re criticising. I say the only way out of religion is to stop and think – but really think and also take into account what others have thought before you – which is the basis of science, by the way.
Etienne
clarityman said
Hello Etienne,
Welcome and thanks for reading my blog.
It would be easier for me to respond if you were to be more specific. Odd that you criticize me for critical of science with such a scientific attack of “You so don’t know what you’re talking about, it’s funny.” Which scientific journal has counter arguments like that?
If you read my posts more carefully, you’ll see that I am not at all a fan of religion. I am talking about belief in G-d. In this approach, you can both take into account what others have said before you or look all by yourself.
If you care to discuss what I write or criticize it, that would be great. Like the scientific model, that is how we’ll come to a higher understanding. What is funny is that the religion that you criticize is often too guilty of broad brush over-generalizations like what you paint with.
Thanks again for your comments, but please make them more direct and less attacking if you want to have intelligent discourse with me. Be well.
Etienne said
Re. Your points:
1. As you say the sun/earth/moon system is but one out of many billion possible configurations *which we know do in fact exist*. Life as we know it evolved and adapted itself to this particular system so it is not surprising that it is perfectly tuned to the particular features of this system. It is not chance that made the earth so suitable to our survival. It is life on this earth that adapted itself to existence on it, the mechanisms by which it happened being well understood and not seriously disputed in scientific circles. This is a version of the anthropic principle – if the world were not the way it is, we would not be here to observe it.
2. The existence of patterns, relationships etc. is not a prerequisite of a universe created by an intelligent being, therefore the existence of such patterns is not proof of the existence of God. You speak of belief. One can believe anything one cares to dream about, but if your beliefs are not based on a solid foundation they are worth nothing. Thousands of years of tradition are not necessarily a solid foundation. 500 years ago people believed that the earth was flat. Today they believe otherwise because they saw is was not flat with their own eyes. 5000 years ago people believed that the universe was sneezed out of an omnipotent being’s nose (or whatever) because they had no alternative explanation. Today science has provided an alternative that is provable and measurable (or is making progress towards that goal). And yet people like you are afraid of letting go of that thousands year old canard that has caused nothing but misery fear and death throughout mankind’s history.
Etienne
P.S. I think my comment was less attacking than “… I’d probably say that they are a bunch of idiots.”
clarityman said
Etienne,
Much better. Thank you. I can respond.
As you point out, 500 years ago people believed the world was flat. You do understand, of course, that it was the scientific community that also believed this. When you say that something is not seriously debated in scientific circles, I keep this framework in my mind.
Evolution is a loaded word, understood poorly by many, stretched to weird limits by lots. There is undoubtedly adaptation of species. There is certainly a principle of evolution in the universe. Not everyone in the scientific community accepts that we all crawled out of a swamp. And . . . even if we did . . . how did the swamp get there with all of the magical ingredients? You can call it chance if you want, but then don’t try to slam religious people with attacks of blind faith. (By the way, I don’t have a religious view that includes blind faith. I don’t like it all.)
“Proof” is another loaded word that I usually don’t use when talking about G-d. I like the word evidence. I also did not say that patterns are the prerequisite. That order is backwards. The patterns exist. We recognize intelligence in patterns. Atheists pretend to be really smart and use big terms that impress other atheists, but you continue to ignore the simple commons sense questions similar to the ones that I raise here.
How did the ingredients get here? How does the pattern get so intensely complex only to be considered random? When I say stop and think, I mean with the common sense to work out this really simple stuff.
As far as my beliefs being based on 5000 years of tradition, I scoff at Fiddler on the Roof and blind faith. You talk about “making progress towards that goal” of figuring it out, yet you make fun of belief. Slow down. We’re not all as dumb as you think.
As for my name calling, it was addressed at a straw man. When an atheist can explain to me these simple problems without clouding the issues with theories and fancy terms, I’ll recant. As long as the best answer you have is to continually make fun of all people of belief and ignore some pretty intense evidence, I’ll laugh along with you. But I won’t be the foolish doormat that would make your life easier. My beliefs are solid and based on evidence. Please don’t assume that you know my beliefs when I haven’t written much at all about them here and you don’t know me. If you have questions, I’ll try to answer them.
Thanks again.